Help with Knights Cross research

I have an original, (not reproduction), Knights Cross with oak leaves, swords, and diamonds that my father brought home from W.W.II. I also have an original silver Panzer Assault badge and an SS dagger.

Can anyone provide advise as to where I should start in researching who they were awarded to, if this is even possible?

Any help would be appreciated.

Hi Jim!

When I read your news flash, I was really surprised. If you really have an original Knight's Cross with Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds, you are in possession of a thing that has not only high material worth, but also huge historical. The Knight's Cross with Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds was the highest German award during the WW2, with one exception. The same award, only in gold, was given to the famous Stuka pilot Hans-Ulrich Rudel. All other Knight's Crosses are made of silver. The Knight's Cross was awarded only 27 times.

I have to add that the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross was actually the highest award, but I don't consider it more valuable, because the Knight's Cross with O,S&D was awarded for ultimate bravery in the face of the enemy and the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross was given only to Goering for his successful command of the Luftwaffe during the campaigns in France and the Low Countries in 1940.

Here are some details that might help you in identifying your Knight's Cross with O,S&D: (Note that the Knight's Cross with O,S&D is an ordinal Knight's Cross, only with a different decorated suspension loop)

1) The Knight's Cross measures 48.2mm to 48.8mm across the frame and is suspended from a 45mm neck ribbon of black, white, red, white, black material (a lot of original Knight's Cross ribbon has a orange cast to the red section of the ribbon). 2) The Knight's Cross is made of real silver and the silver content of real Knight's Crosses range from 800, 900, to 935 silver (Knight's Crosses found with a silver content mark 925 are to be viewed with much suspicion).The content marks can be found on the reverse of all upper frames of all original pieces. 3) In addition to the silver content number, maker codes can sometimes be found on the reverses of rarer crosses. Knight's Crosses will bear the markings 800 2(*10), 800 L/12(*11) (C.E. Juncker Berlin), 935 4(*12) (Steinhauer and Lueck), 800 21(*13) (Gebr. Godet & Co.), or 800 65(*14) (Klein & Quenzer A.G.). 4) Original Knights Crosses will have a Swastika that comes up even with the beaded edge of the frame. Crosses that have Swastikas that fall below the beaded frame, should be viewed with suspicion. 5) Knight's Crosses bearing a 2 maker mark should have a lazy 2. What this means is that the 2 is laying on it's side. A Knight's Cross with a vertical 2 should be viewed as a reproduction. 6) It should be noted that post-war versions of the Knights Cross manufactured by the firm C.E. Juncker Berlin are also hallmarked L/12. The only way to tell the difference between a war-time and a post-war piece, is that original war-time examples hallmarked 2 or L/12 have a design flaw in the beaded edge of the frame. Where the beaded edge meets the Swastika, a extra line is formed in the corners of the frame. If you could put these lines together they would form a cross-hatch effect. It would look like this (#), but only straighter. Post-war made crosses don't have this flaw. 7) Knight's Crosses bearing the hallmark 935 4 are unusual in the fact that the maker mark is stamped upside down. The 4 mark is stamped in incuse relief. That means the 4 is raised out of a stamped depression. The ribbon loop of these crosses will be marked 935 or in some cases 900. 8) The 800 hallmark on this cross is also stamped in incuse relief, but it is right side up not upside down. The 21 hallmark is simply stamped into the upper reverse frame on the right side.

And at the end here is the list of the 27 men who received the Knight's Cross with O,S&D, in historical order and dates: 1. Werner Mvlders 7.16.41 2. Adolf Galland 1.28.42 3. Gordon M Gollob 8.30.42 4. Hans-Joachim Marseille 9.4.42 5. Hermann Graf 9.16.42 6. Erwin Rommel 3.11.42 7. Wolfgang L th 8.11.43 8. Walter Nowotny 10.20.43 9. Adelbert Schulz 12.14.44 10. Hans-Ulrich Rudel 3.29.44 11. Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz 4.15.44 12. Herbert Otto Gille 4.19.44 13. Hans Hube 4.20.44 14. Albert Kesselring 7.19.44 15. Helmuth Lent 7.31.44 16. Sepp Dietrich 8.6.44 17. Walter Model 8.17.44 18. Erich Hartmann 8.25.44 19. Hermann Balck 8.31.44 20. Gerhard Ramcke 9.20.44 21. Wolfgang Schnaufer 10.16.44 22. Albercht Brandi 11.24.44 23. Ferdinand Schvrner 1.1.45 24. Hasso von Manteuffel 2.18.45 25. Theodor Tolsdorf 3.18.45 26. Dr.Karl Mauss 4.15.45 27. Dietrich von Saucken 5.8.45

I hope this will help. It would be nice if you would told us how, where and when did your father get this Knight's Cross with Oakleavs, Sword and Diamonds. If you have some pictures of it please send it to me. I would like to see a real Knight's Cross with Oakleavs, Sword and Diamonds.

Best regards, Tomislav

You might be better off to leave well enough alone. Your father no doubt obtained these items illegally. If I recall correctly, the Geneva Convention prohibits the taking of decorations from the enemy. There might be heirs around who would love to have them back and might sue, and lawyers to help them. It cuts both ways: The Germans looted their enemies, and so did their enemies loot them.

Thank you for your advise, but my father fought all the way from Normandy to the end of the war and if he, (like hundreds of other G.I.'s) happened to 'liberate' a few war trophies, then so be it. I don't recall the 101st Airborne, (his unit during the war), running any concentration camps, maintaining any gas chambers, pulling gold teeth from their victims, or 'relocating' millions. I have great respect for the German people and the German soldier of W.W.II. The Wermacht and Waffen-SS were some of the finest fighting men that ever graced the battlefield, but to say that my father did something illegal???? Please! I won't even dignify that by defending his actions.

Well if your fathers Knights Cross with all the glitter upon had been liberated by his enemies Im pretty sure you would have an different attitude about this. Even as it was common for soldiers to take trophies like that doesnt nearly at all justify it in any way. As this is a very rare decoration were talking about makes it even more inmoral in my opinion.

Hi

distinguish between GIs taking war souvenirs and Germans killing, directly or indirectly, 55 million people:

My dear Watkins, I can make this distinction. My point was, and still is, and it is the only point, that this medal has very high value, there having been only some two dozen issued. It may be considered, if not an object of art, then one of history. I have no doubt that it had considerable monetary value then, and that it is even more valuable today.

This being the case, I advised the 'owner' not to push his researches too publicly, because there are lawyers around who would happily assist the true owner, or his heirs, to regain their stolen (absconded, liberated, whatever) property. I did not say that the 'owner's' grandfather was the thief.

This has nothing to do with 55 million dead.

Heinz HeinzA

have an original, (not reproduction), Knights Cross with oak leaves, swords, and diamonds that my father brought home from W.W.II. I also have an original silver Panzer Assault badge and an SS dagger.

Jim: I am not an expert on Military Law, but do you think it is moral to strip a dead or captured enemy of his honourably won medals? Yes, I know, others did it and the good guys won and if you can get away with it why not and it was a long time ago and all that loot must be worth a lot of money to collectors. The decent thing would be to return it to the German government representative in your area.

May I tell an anecdote:

A year ago, I met an old man, older than I. He had been a mate on an American destroyer. That ship sank a German submarine in 1943. There were survivors. They were taken aboard the destroyer One of the survivors, an officer, was put in the care of my friend. The officer died the next day. My friend took his wedding ring from the dead man's finger. HeinzA

If Germany was anything like the US, trading is a great deal. If you really want it replaced after the war, you fill out a form and say it was lost or stolen or some such.

There is nothing like tradegoods that always come back to you.

Looks pretty simple to me. If a GI ( I am using that term for any Allied warrior ) was issued a Medal of Honour, Victoria Cross etc. I would think he ( or she ) would only surrender it to an enemy under great duress. Earn your own medals.